09/23/2022
Dark Matter, God, and the Fate of the Universe with Maria Elena Monzani
A conversation with Maria Elena Monzani, lead scientist at SLAC national accelerator laboratory and one of the world’s pioneer investigators of dark matter.Songs in this episode:“The World Spins” by Julee Cruise
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[Music]
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If darkness is our oldest friend and if we return to it again and again,
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it's because it was with us around us and in us before we emerge into the day's divinity.
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When we search for origins, for the seminal priority of first principles,
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we venture into the depths of a metaphysical night that extends far beyond Earth's
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nocturnal shadow, onto the source of all sources. Look up at the night sky,
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all those stars and all ordinary matter make up only a small fraction of what's out there.
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The rest is dark upon dark. Stay tuned friends, a show on the evidence of things unseen, coming up.
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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I'm Robert Harrison for entitled opinions coming to you from the studios of KZSU on the Stanford campus.
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And if it pains you that I'm fading out Julie Cruz's interstellar voice singing the world spins,
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sit tight because I'll play the song in its entirety at the end of today's show.
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Who said angels don't exist?
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I'm joined today by Maria Elena Monzani, one of the world's pioneering investigators
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of what goes by the name of dark matter.
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Maria Elena is a lead scientist at the Stanford Linear Accelerator or Slack as we call it around here.
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And one of the leaders of the Luke's Zeppelin Dark Matter experiment with the Cavley Institute for
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Particle Astrophysics and Cosmology.
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In 2005 she received a joint PhD in Astroparticle physics from the Dunidit Hall University of Paris,
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Parissette and the Univertitad de Listudie Di Milano in 2005.
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She received the Excess Scale Science Application Award in 2019 and NASA's Group Achievement Award
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in 2010. It's a real pleasure to welcome her to the program. Maria Elena, thanks for joining us
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today on entitled opinions.
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Thanks for having me in the catacombs.
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Yes, we are in the deep dark.
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Speaking of which, in my intro I mentioned this phrase "The Evidence of Things Unseen"
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and it's a phrase I actually borrow from the epistle to the Hebrews, which contains a famous
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Pauline definition of faith, "The substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen."
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But today we're going to be talking about a very different kind of evidence in the epistle
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to the Hebrews had in mind with that definition. But let me put my first question to you about
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dark matter in a roundabout way. I know you're a lover of poetry, so here's a poem by WH Auden
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called "The More Loving One." It's rhyming coupleists give a veneer of playfulness,
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yet I think a very earnest intent lies under the Sing Song surface.
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Looking up at the stars, I know quite well that for all they care I can go to hell.
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But on earth in difference is the least we have to dread from man or beast.
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How should we like it? We're stars to burn with a passion for us we could not return.
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If equal affection cannot be, let the more loving one be me.
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At my earth as I think I am of stars that do not give a damn, I cannot now I see them say,
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"I missed one terribly all day." We're all stars to disappear or die. I should learn to look at
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an empty sky and feel its total dark sublime, though this might take me a little time.
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So the first thing I would remark is that we're all stars to disappear and die. The sky would not,
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in fact, be empty, far from it. All the stars in the universe, as you know better than I do,
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as well as all ordinary matter, make up only 5% of the universe's total contents.
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The other 95% consists of dark matter, 27% and dark energy, 68%.
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Dark matter and dark energy are the unseen forces that determine our cosmic destiny.
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Yet the existence of dark matter has never actually been confirmed since no one so far has been
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able to detect any dark matter particles. And here is where you come in because you, Maria Elena,
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are at the forefront of a worldwide project that seeks to find hard scientific proof that dark
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matter in fact exists. We have every reason to assume that it does exist. Yet it remains very elusive.
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And why is that? What is it about dark matter that makes it so hidden from us?
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So I'm going to give us a little tour of the fundamental forces of the universe in order to answer
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this question so that we get a sense of what the order of the magnitude are. So as far as we know,
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we, there are four fundamental forces that rule the fate of the universe. And when I say as far as
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we know, it's important because those are the forces that affect our bodies, the earth, the sun,
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which means these are the forces that affect protons, neutrons, and electrons, which is the stuff
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you and I are made off the table, the chair I'm sitting on etc. So those forces are in order of
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strength, the nuclear strength force, strong force, the electromagnetic force, the nuclear weak force,
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and gravity. We have experience of most of them in our daily life. The weakest of those is gravity.
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Gravity is the reason why I am firmly planted on the chair right now and I'm not floating through
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the room. And we all experience gravity at all times. Gravity is the weakest, but it's the one that
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has the biggest effect on the large scale because it's always addictive or it only has one sign and
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the sign is always attractive. So basically if the universe was made by two protons for gravity,
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they would eventually find each other and fall on each other. So then gravity,
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accryts, things, things get bigger, the bigger they are, the more gravity they exert on each other.
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Now we can go up on the one that we have an experience of which is electromagnetism.
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Electromagnetism has positive and negative so it can be attractive or repulsive.
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And basically its range is usually very limited because atoms tend to be neutral. So my body
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as a whole is neutral, which again is why I'm not flying off the chair and sticking against the wall.
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We don't have a charge. You know, we're doing a radio program so we're using electromagnetic waves
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but I think the most cogent experience of the strength of electromagnetic force, which is how we know in
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our daily life that is stronger than gravity is the chair is holding me up. The chair is solid
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and this happens because the electrons in the atoms of the chair and the electrons in the
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atom in my body repel each other repels each other. This is why the earth is very big but I'm
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not falling through the chair. The chair is not falling through the ground. The building is not falling
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to the center of the earth. So basically electromagnetism is what keeps things solid.
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Thank goodness for electrons. Correct, yes. So then you can go the strongest scale I said earlier is
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the nuclear strong force. That's what keeps the nuclei in a tone prevents them from decay,
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from falling apart. So for example, the carbon in our bodies, which is in our DNA,
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in our skin pretty much everywhere, is made of six protons, six neutrons, and six electrons. Usually
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it can have one or two extra neutrons. The protons are, you know, six of them that would repel each
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other because they have all positive charge and they are confined in a space of 10 to the minus
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15 meters. The atom is about 10 to the minus 10 to the minus 15 is one million to the
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billion to the meter. Sorry, I'm not saying this in miles. Forgive me, I want to call in Europe.
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So it's a very small space in which you have a lot of charge that would repel each other.
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So then you will need something that is stronger than the protons that then they repassion to hold
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them together. And you know, it's a glue and we use the work glue for the carriers of the strong force.
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This gives you an idea of how much stronger the strong force is compared to the electromagnetic force.
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Then we have the weak one. The weak force with don't experience in daily life.
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This is what allows for types of nucleot to the transforming to each other.
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I think the glimpse of how weak the weak force is, we can get in two places. One is from nuclear waste.
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When we have a nuclear reactor, we produce waste, the waste is around 400 or 1000 years or
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million years. That is because those atoms settle using the weak force. And one way to say
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weak is very slow. So it takes a very long time for those atoms to go back to stable state and not
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be radioactive or we call radioactive. Another thing that is more common to our bodies is a small
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fraction of our carbon because we breathe air that is affected by cosmic ray and a small fraction
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of our carbon is carbon 14. And that stays around for a long time after we die, which is why we
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can use carbon to date leaving organisms in archaeology. So it takes about 5000 years for the carbon
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to go away. This isn't very indirect way to get the glimpse of how weak weak interaction is.
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I don't have a more direct one because normally our atoms don't decay and so we don't see that
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in regular life. So this is a premise of what the fundamental forces are.
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Now we can ask, okay, dark matter and dark energy, how do they relate with the fundamental forces?
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And please keep in mind those are the forces that we're subject to, but there might be other
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things out in the universe that don't have these forces that interact completely independently
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and by definition we will not be able to interact with them. So can I ask a clarification question?
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Are the four forces fundamental forces of the universes that apply only to ordinary
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baryonic matter? Namely the matter that we know stars and that five percent that I was talking about?
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That's the perfect question I was about to get into this part of the of the conversation.
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So dark energy which makes out makes up 70 percent of the matter energy density of the universe.
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It's very weird to explain what dark energy is, is what is accelerating the expansion of the universe.
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We think that it is a property of the metric that defines the universe, a problems, an intrinsic
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property of space time. I know this is a very strange thing to say, but in other words it's a property
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of gravity itself. So dark energy being a property of space time, it's a property of gravity,
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and being a property of gravity it feels gravity, but if it's the gravity in the opposite,
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we write it out in the equations as a negative pressure because you know gravity is what makes things,
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the expansion of the universe slow down, makes things pile on each other, but dark energy is
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doing the opposite effect. So in a way that can achieve the weakest, even though there is a lot of it,
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and we say it's the weakest because it only shows on the scale that is beyond galaxy clusters.
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It only shows in the global scale of the universe, and that's one of the reasons why it's so hard
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to measure because the way we look at it is we see the expansion of the universe as it is now,
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and then we can go back and look at the further subjects, and then we say, "Ah, you know,
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10 billion years ago, galaxies, the universe was expanding more slowly than it is now,"
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or we can look across directions and say, "Is it the same in every direction, etc., etc."
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So then dark matter, I'm going to say something that's incorrect, but please bear with me,
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is a little more intense than dark energy because we see it on a smaller scale.
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So we see dark matter on a variety of scales, the smallest one of which is the galaxy,
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we see it very clearly in cluster of galaxies in several different ways,
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and we see its fingerprints on the universe. We see it in the
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a spectra of the cosmic wave background, we see it in the primordial composition of the atoms that
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came out of the Big Bang. So excuse me, but when you say we see it, are you speaking metaphorically?
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Because what does it mean to see dark matter? I thought we don't have any actual,
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scopic evidence for it. Fantastic, we can measure its effects.
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Right, okay. So for example, they do turn on fraction from the primordial,
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from the Big Bang. You know, the composition, the primordial composition of the universe was fixed
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in the first 20 minutes after the Big Bang event, and you know, we know that matter, we would have
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75% hydrogen, 25% helium by mass, but instead we have traces of duturon in there,
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and we think that this happened because dark matter was so abandoned in the durley universe
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that it diluted dutur on a bit. So not all the dutur burned up in the
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Big Bang and turned into helium. So is that one of the biggest effects that people point to
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for the existence of dark matter? Not really. This is one of the one of the effects that cannot be
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explained by modified gravity. Okay. That's one of the interesting ones. The biggest ones that we
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all know and that, you know, have been observed more or less for a hundred years is the dynamic of
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large scale objects in the universe, such as the galaxy or clusters of galaxy. So for example,
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if you take a photo, it's not a photo recording of how things rotate in a spiral galaxy, such as
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Andromeda, such as the Triangolong, which is where it was originally measured by Virrobin in the 1970s,
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you see that the galaxy kind of rotates like a solid object, but there is a near-linaf mass to
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explain the rotation in that way. So that is the original evidence for dark matter. This is on
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the galaxy. A hundred years ago, it was sort of guessed by Fritz Suki who came up with the name
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Dungkele Materia, Dark Matter in German. And so that's the dynamic of how things rotate around
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shows that there is a lot of matter that we cannot see. Now, dark matter is not really dark,
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it's more like transparent. It's more like a viscose substance in the universe, like molasses,
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the slow things down. That's the fact that we observe. And they say transparent because it doesn't
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shine and it doesn't shade. So I'm hoping the most of us would have observed in Milky Way and
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night at least once. And you see a big dark streak in the middle of the Milky Way. That is
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interstellar gas. That is the dark stuff. And we see it in a way. Even with our eyes, we see it as a
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shade. Dark matter is not dead. It's not something that prevents the-- it's between us and the light
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and absorbs the electromagnetic radiation. Dark matter is completely unaffected by electromagnetic
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radiation. Does it make light? Does an absorb light? The interesting bit here is I've talked about
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the gravitational effects of Dark Matter. We know for sure that he has the gravitational interaction.
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But very tantalizing. Let's say it's circumstantial evidence from the dynamics of the big
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bank and how the universe cool down in the first few seconds is that Dark Matter may or might
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have the weak interaction. So that's what we're going after because if he has the weak interaction,
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we can make it interact with our nuclei, nuclei now, detector, nuclei, inazics, etc., etc.
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We know that this is extremely rare, but that's what some of the experiments are chasing because
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it's the joke about the drunk person looking for their keys under the lamp. Why are you looking
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there? Because I can. Yes. So we're looking with the weak interaction because we can,
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most of all, but also because if you rewind the move of the big bank to hit the density that
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would explain the amount of Dark Matter that we see right now, we hit a range of temperature,
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which is the characteristic temperature of the weak interaction. So basically Dark Matter would
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have the couple from the primordial universe, same time as the neutrino, so around second one from
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the big bank event. So that's the reason why we go after it with the weak interaction.
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So if I understand properly, the Dark Matter was generated as a result of the big bang like
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ordinary matter. Correct. Yeah. And Dark Energy also owes its genesis to the big bang.
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So maybe we can break out the order if that is interesting. Sure. So first, very, very first
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fraction of the big bang was what we think this phenomenon, which is inflation, which is where space
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time unraveled. Space time has property gravity and therefore dark energy. So dark energy was
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there from second to the monastery of the universe. Second, 10 to the monastery, second is where
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physics break down. But in the very first distance, dark energy was there. Then the universe up to
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10 to the minus 12 seconds from the beginning. Again, I'm saying very small numbers was a quark
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glue on plasma. So strong forces the first one that decoupled and then by second one,
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electromagnetism and weak force had decoupled from gravity from other forces from each other.
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Let's say or from the vacuum, which is a whole other thing, but that's when they show up.
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And so in the first second, the photons is created the electron, the neutrino, and the dark matter
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particle if there is such a thing. And I didn't explain what we're looking for a particle,
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but because we see a gravitational effect that is attractive, this thing has mass and has mass
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the way, you know, I have mass and I'm not flying around the room now.
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Okay, so if it has mass, is it here with us? Is it in the studio? Is it coming between us? Or is it
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even in our bodies without it interacting with the ordinary matter? Where is its location?
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Correct. So it's in the galaxy. It's what is holding the galaxy together. Now this sun is
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rotating around the center of the galaxy at around 150, 160 miles per second, I'm going to say.
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And so we're slamming against a wind of dark matter, which is going through us.
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In a standard model of dark matter, it is about a particle per liter. So, you know, three to five
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particles are going through our head at any given second. And they go quite fast, so it's about a
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billion per second to go through our bodies at any given time. Of dark matter. Of dark matter.
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And they don't bother us because they don't, they're completely indifferent to
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to our ordinary matter. So that is the question, how in different are they to ordinary matter?
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Do they have a weight on track with us through the weak force? Which then would mean, you know,
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maybe one particle of dark matter will interact with the nuclei of my body through my entire life.
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Okay. Order of magnitude.
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And it's that possibility that there is one particle even, you know,
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astray, almost impossible to find. But I gather that your research is focused on trying to locate
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those particles and certify that they are actually interacting there in the whimp, the weak,
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weakly interactive massive particles. And if there is a detection of dark matter,
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the particular particle of dark matter, it would be the whimp in the whimp force, right?
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So that is what I'm looking for. My team is looking for. There are other models that are harder to
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look for. Let's say that if dark matter has any type of interaction with regular matter,
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we can rewind to the conditions close to the big bank event. So then you can do three things.
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You can have regular particles called light and I late create other particles, one of which
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could be dark matter, which is what the people at CERN are trying to do, make dark matter in the lab.
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Or you can look at very dense regions in the universe, such as the center of the galaxy or the center
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of the sun, and observe the opposite event, which is two particles of dark matter annihilating
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two regular particles or photons. And then there's a third wave, which is the Skederex
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experiment, which is Billier Ball, basically two things hit each other and they change trajectory,
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they exchange momentum, they exchange velocity. One thing that we don't think of when we play
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Billier and the balls hit each other, this is an exchange of electromagnetic force,
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it's still the electrons that repel each other. Otherwise the balls will go through each other,
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they will be transparent to each other. So same thing with dark matter and nuclei in a detector,
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we want them to scatter an exchange of momentum or energy or velocity between them.
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And so, sorry, what was the question again? Well, the detection of the particle,
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it sounds like you have to get very lucky if you're going to detect such a particle of dark matter.
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Is that not the case? That's correct. So we have been looking at, we've taken the cross-section that
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we expect from the beginning of the universe and build the detector around that cross-section.
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And basically we kind of treat it like a neutrino, so something that you make a big detector
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and it will interact extremely rarely. And so three, four, five, depending how you count,
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| 00:24:56.960 |
generation of detectors have not seen evidence of these collisions. The experiment that we're
|
| 00:25:02.160 |
running now, which is the Luxx Zeppelin, has 10 tons of liquid xenon, a liquid xenon.
|
| 00:25:09.760 |
And I can say a few words about why liquid xenon in a second, but we waited for several months
|
| 00:25:17.120 |
and we know that there are 10 billion of particles going through the detector every second
|
| 00:25:22.640 |
and none of them have interacted with my nuclei of liquid xenon in a three-month observation.
|
| 00:25:28.240 |
Now we're going to do a three-year observation and then, you know, the more you go down in sensitivity,
|
| 00:25:33.440 |
the more you know about the type of interaction that you might have.
|
| 00:25:38.080 |
So in three years you're hoping maybe to get one or two interactions.
|
| 00:25:41.760 |
Maybe like a dozen, couple dozen, if nature cooperates.
|
| 00:25:46.160 |
And if you do get a dozen, will that prove the existence of dark matter?
|
| 00:25:51.600 |
In my view, we already proved the existence of dark matter based on its effect.
|
| 00:25:57.040 |
The detection will prove that he has the weak interaction and that it's a particle
|
| 00:26:03.520 |
and it will give us an idea, a feel for the mass of the particle, of the mass range of the particle.
|
| 00:26:09.920 |
Yeah. Don't you find that we live in a very bizarre universe, from our point of view,
|
| 00:26:17.760 |
human ordinary matter point of view, where we look out and see, I mean endless galaxies with the
|
| 00:26:27.040 |
James Webb telescope now, it's just staggering and overwhelming how many
|
| 00:26:32.880 |
super clusters of galaxies, how many galaxies, how many stars, it's countless.
|
| 00:26:40.000 |
And yet we're told that that's just a side story and a very minor side story and that the real
|
| 00:26:49.920 |
Agon is between dark matter and dark energy, which are again relatively indifferent to us.
|
| 00:26:57.200 |
And if the universe is going to end in some kind of thermal death, it's going to be because of the
|
| 00:27:03.920 |
triumph of dark energy over dark matter or if we can postpone however long,
|
| 00:27:12.400 |
you know, that final thermal death is going to be thanks to the effect of dark matter.
|
| 00:27:17.840 |
And I think that more people know about this story, this invisible story, the more I think we would,
|
| 00:27:26.160 |
I feel like I have to align myself with dark matter against dark energy.
|
| 00:27:30.880 |
Because dark energy is the force of entropy, I don't know if I'm using these terms in a proper
|
| 00:27:37.840 |
scientific sense, but there is something entropic about dark energy, which is trying to
|
| 00:27:46.640 |
push everything apart to the point where the center does not hold.
|
| 00:27:51.680 |
Yeah, so there are two comments that I will make to your question. The first one is what you
|
| 00:27:58.480 |
call bizarre, I call job security. And I'm like deadly serious here, although it's a joke,
|
| 00:28:05.120 |
because when I was in grad school for particle physics, I was in between my masters and my doctorate.
|
| 00:28:11.440 |
So we have this model that I described earlier, it's called the standard model of particle
|
| 00:28:16.160 |
physics that describes all the particle, all the interactions, etc, etc. And this is one of the great
|
| 00:28:22.480 |
intellectual triumphs of 20th century, it explains everything is very accurate. So I was going
|
| 00:28:28.640 |
to school for particle physics and I was told there are a couple of twinks that we need to put
|
| 00:28:33.600 |
to the standard model, but we're almost there. Physics is very close to complete.
|
| 00:28:38.880 |
And one of the questions was the density of the universe. That was a big question in the late 90s,
|
| 00:28:44.320 |
because it's the parameter that tells us what the universe will have at thermal death,
|
| 00:28:49.360 |
expand forever, or have a big crunch. So we made the measurement in 2001 by the way this was led by
|
| 00:28:56.560 |
Professor Jerome, by any Italian lead group. And they made the measurement, we didn't know the
|
| 00:29:03.120 |
order of magnitude of the density and they came out, this is a hundred plus or minus two, which was
|
| 00:29:09.440 |
amazing. And then they were like, oh, and by the way, 95% of this stuff, we don't know what it is,
|
| 00:29:16.240 |
we don't know what it's made of, we don't know where it comes from. That was a very good time
|
| 00:29:21.040 |
to start the career in particle physics, because throughout school I've been told,
|
| 00:29:25.280 |
and there is very little to figure out, and now I'm like, now most of it we don't know what it is.
|
| 00:29:30.880 |
Is this thing with like the sciences or anything in reality where you're like, all more almost there,
|
| 00:29:36.880 |
it's like hiking, you're at the peak and then you get to the peak and you're like, oh no,
|
| 00:29:41.360 |
that's not where I was going, there is a whole another valley and then all another peak.
|
| 00:29:45.760 |
So I like this part of the universe in which it's playing with us a little bit not on purpose.
|
| 00:29:52.800 |
So that's...
|
| 00:29:54.000 |
No, I know. Yeah, it's perfectly fascinating if you're in the business of discovery and in the
|
| 00:29:59.680 |
business of adventure and venturing into the unknown in particular, and there seems to be a lot of it,
|
| 00:30:09.040 |
a lot of it out there.
|
| 00:30:09.920 |
And then, sorry, I'm interrupting you, but the other side of your question about dark matter
|
| 00:30:16.480 |
is that dark matter seeded the density fluctuations very early in the universe, in the first
|
| 00:30:24.080 |
thousands of the universe that allowed for large scale structure formation, and then on that was built,
|
| 00:30:32.640 |
you know galaxies and stars.
|
| 00:30:34.160 |
Everything were made of except for the hydrogen was made inside of a star.
|
| 00:30:40.080 |
The iron in our blood which allows us to break was made in a supernova explosion.
|
| 00:30:46.160 |
None of those things would happen without dark matter because the universe doesn't have enough
|
| 00:30:51.200 |
regular matter to counteract basically the violence of the explosion of the big bank.
|
| 00:30:56.080 |
So this is a very moving thing to me that, you know, there is this thing we don't interact with.
|
| 00:31:02.640 |
We don't know what it is, we don't know where it comes from, but without it, we wouldn't be here
|
| 00:31:07.520 |
to have the conversation in a way. And, you know, this is to agree with you that dark matter is better
|
| 00:31:13.680 |
than dark energy for like what we are concerned.
|
| 00:31:16.640 |
As far as we're concerned, yes.
|
| 00:31:21.040 |
So now I'm going to ask a very speculative question, which I'm assuming you are not going to be able to
|
| 00:31:26.800 |
answer scientifically, but if you think of the big bang as an inflation invent, was dark energy,
|
| 00:31:34.960 |
the prime mover of the big bang?
|
| 00:31:36.800 |
No dark energy was a product. Now we are speculating a little bit between container and content.
|
| 00:31:48.080 |
Yeah. So dark energy is a property of the container and everything that we are is the content,
|
| 00:31:54.480 |
including photons that is light. But so we believe or believe is a strong word, but we
|
| 00:32:02.720 |
hypothesize that the universe, the big bang was a quantum fluctuation. Now there is a very
|
| 00:32:10.240 |
interesting-- Can you explain what is a quantum fluctuation?
|
| 00:32:13.360 |
There is this very interesting concept in quantum physics, which is the word vacuum. Vacuum is not empty.
|
| 00:32:19.680 |
It is a sea of potentiality to use the Aristotelian expression. It's like looking out at a
|
| 00:32:26.000 |
column lake that is flat, but you know, if there is wind, you're going to see very big waves.
|
| 00:32:30.320 |
So basically what we know is that they fear means. So all the particles they were made of
|
| 00:32:35.520 |
are represented in quantum physics by harmonic oscillations. The ground state of their
|
| 00:32:41.360 |
harmonical oscillations is not zero. It's half a particle. So if we have the vacuum, which is the place
|
| 00:32:47.840 |
where all the forces exist and all the particles exist is a big word. But is the place where the
|
| 00:32:54.720 |
rules of physics exist? Then it's not empty because it has half a particle of every possible
|
| 00:33:01.760 |
particle in every point. And the particles pop in and out of existence continuously,
|
| 00:33:08.320 |
and that's-- Even before the big bang. That I don't have an answer to. But it is possible,
|
| 00:33:15.520 |
so I'm going to say what remains that they pop in and out of the existence continuously,
|
| 00:33:19.440 |
and then we can go back to the big bang. There is a formulation of the uncertainty principle,
|
| 00:33:25.760 |
which is energy and time. Energy in certain tune energy and uncertainty of time is always bigger
|
| 00:33:32.320 |
than a certain number. That means that you can give whatever energy you want as long as you take away
|
| 00:33:38.960 |
fast enough. So basically this is the concept of virtual particles. Particles popping in and out of
|
| 00:33:45.840 |
the void and dying so fast of the vacuum and dying and going back so fast that you can violate
|
| 00:33:52.400 |
the laws of physics basically. You can violate conservation of energy if you do it fast enough.
|
| 00:33:57.200 |
That's what the quantum fluctuation is. If you give enough energy, the particle becomes real. It's
|
| 00:34:03.440 |
really extracted from the void. We say it's the marshal, and that's how the colliders work. Basically,
|
| 00:34:10.640 |
you know, you annihilate particle, you produce a bunch of energy, send it into the vacuum,
|
| 00:34:16.160 |
and they will extract existing virtual particles and make them real. It is possible that
|
| 00:34:22.640 |
that's what happened at the big bang event. That there was a vacuum with fields that was
|
| 00:34:29.680 |
probed with enough energy to bring something of the marshal, made something real, which was the
|
| 00:34:36.160 |
entire universe. And I know this sounds very esoteric, but I don't know how else to explain.
|
| 00:34:45.120 |
I'm assuming that you relate to the universe with a certain wonder and awe. It's very difficult not to
|
| 00:34:54.080 |
have a sense of awe and wonder. But at the same time, the more I learn about how these forces work
|
| 00:35:04.560 |
and how stars are born and what nuclear fusion is, the more
|
| 00:35:12.400 |
in a matchably violent is this universe that we live in. And I almost go back now and I'm
|
| 00:35:21.040 |
seduced by the Mannequi in worldview, which is that a universe that is the product of this extreme
|
| 00:35:30.480 |
collisions that are happening all the time. And the annihilation of antimatter by matter and the
|
| 00:35:38.320 |
annihilation of particle by another particle and one kind of molecule turns into another molecule.
|
| 00:35:47.440 |
All this is the result of an extraordinary violence and the Mannequi and ideas that this
|
| 00:35:52.640 |
created world cannot be created by benevolent God. It has to be created by some other
|
| 00:35:58.240 |
demonic force. Sometimes in my darker moods, it seems to me that this universe has a very,
|
| 00:36:08.000 |
very violent character that doesn't seem to conform to the notion of it's certainly not
|
| 00:36:17.040 |
Dante's universe of the perfect circular motions and the utter serenity of the heavenly spheres
|
| 00:36:25.840 |
where everything is nestled and embedded one sphere into the other and it's all moved by the
|
| 00:36:33.280 |
love of the creator and the creator, you know, Lamorca,
|
| 00:36:36.400 |
more of the love that moves the sun and the other stars were far from that kind of
|
| 00:36:43.840 |
universities days. And it seems like the more we learn about it, the more violent it gets.
|
| 00:36:48.640 |
So the violent is paradoxically very hospitable to life and it's something that we don't
|
| 00:36:56.640 |
understand at the fundamental level. I mentioned it earlier, I run the mix up the hemoglobin of my
|
| 00:37:04.320 |
blood is what allows us to breathe. It was made in a supernova explosion. That is the most violent
|
| 00:37:11.200 |
event in the universe that we can think of. I think even worse is the neutrinos, the neutron stars,
|
| 00:37:18.160 |
which if the heavier elements and iron come from these incredible collisions of neutron stars,
|
| 00:37:23.680 |
even worse. I was about to get there, right? If all the iron in our blood comes from a supernova,
|
| 00:37:29.600 |
that to me is very moving, that we come from something very violent. And you know, when the sun
|
| 00:37:35.520 |
dies in four and a half billion years around the same time, the Milky Way will merge with the
|
| 00:37:40.880 |
Andromeda galaxy. So it will kick off new star formation and you know, maybe the whatever comes after
|
| 00:37:48.160 |
the sun will be in a binary system and maybe next round my iron will get to be gold and maybe in
|
| 00:37:55.440 |
10 billion years there will be a life form which is silly conveys instead of carbon based and it will
|
| 00:38:01.040 |
use gold for breathing. That to me is mesmerizing and it's violent but not in a way that I perceive
|
| 00:38:08.640 |
as hostile. Well then if we're a little part here, you know, because we're a tiny little part is
|
| 00:38:16.720 |
someone that almost every Italian has in his or her blood, he's the great pessimist of the 19th century.
|
| 00:38:25.120 |
And he's, if he were here with us here in the discussion, he would ask, will it have been worth it
|
| 00:38:32.880 |
when our blood is made of gold and not a virus? Is life itself not a horrible mistake of the universe?
|
| 00:38:44.800 |
In so far as for all that's miraculous, tensions is a condition essentially of suffering and of
|
| 00:38:53.840 |
exposure to peril, to risk, to collision, conflict and the perpetual possibility of annihilation
|
| 00:39:06.160 |
that threatens every living thing. So if one were to take a layo-parrity and pessimistic
|
| 00:39:11.680 |
view of things then perhaps the price is too high to pay. Now we're getting off topic here
|
| 00:39:20.000 |
in another sort of speculative space but it's based on what we know of the fact that nothing happens
|
| 00:39:32.640 |
unless there is some kind of explosion, some kind of collision, some kind of annihilation. I mean
|
| 00:39:38.400 |
it seems like there's no birth without the violent death. So if we ask the question of where all this
|
| 00:39:51.520 |
comes from and not just from a technical point of view how we can explain what the big bang is,
|
| 00:39:57.680 |
I find it that I'm a bit in a state of perplexity about is it indeed all contingent
|
| 00:40:09.280 |
and accidental and...
|
| 00:40:13.680 |
So maybe I have two things to say to that. One is where the universe knows in itself
|
| 00:40:24.320 |
that is what makes it worthwhile. There is a Pascal quote that I don't remember of the top of my
|
| 00:40:30.080 |
head but it's something along those lines of all the bodies, the planets, the fear, momentum,
|
| 00:40:35.600 |
no worth, the smallest intelligence because the smallest intelligence knows the bodies and knows itself.
|
| 00:40:41.440 |
And so there is this idea of knowledge is what makes the universe worth it and the suffering that
|
| 00:40:48.480 |
comes with it. It's yeah, that was a good point. Now because I'm a practice.
|
| 00:40:54.640 |
Okay but now before the next one I want to hear about the practicing but Pascal because he also is
|
| 00:41:00.640 |
famous for his dictum Lucid al-Sétéd-Nél de Césésésésésésésésésésésésésémfé néméfé. The eternal silence of these infinite
|
| 00:41:11.360 |
spaces terrifies me. That was the new world, the post-copernequin world that he was reacting to.
|
| 00:41:17.680 |
So there's a terror and all that we have to also keep in mind for invoking Pascal. Please continue
|
| 00:41:24.320 |
your second point. No, I agree with Pascal. Now we know that the universe is not silent,
|
| 00:41:29.760 |
it's hamming in gravitational waves. So that's a little more comforting if you wish.
|
| 00:41:35.680 |
And also like the word awesome means both meanings, scary and exciting. Now I'm a practicing
|
| 00:41:45.840 |
Catholic and so for example if you think about evolution, evolution works because there is death.
|
| 00:41:52.720 |
Yes. It's not great, it's not a great mechanism. I don't know why God chose the mechanism of
|
| 00:41:59.920 |
evolution to get two beings that were self-aware and capable of good and evil capable of
|
| 00:42:06.560 |
loving God. I don't know why he went that route. But yeah. Well the question
|
| 00:42:16.880 |
for a practicing Catholic is whether you believe that God is the creator of the universe, whether he's
|
| 00:42:24.560 |
in the universe or whether the universe is a faithful reflection of his essence or nature or whether
|
| 00:42:35.360 |
on the contrary it's a disfigure and disfiguring reflection of whatever we mean by God when we use it.
|
| 00:42:44.000 |
I think that the universe is a sign which is the sign does not contain the significant
|
| 00:42:52.000 |
outside of the sacraments for those of us who are Catholic or outside the person of Christ who was
|
| 00:42:57.200 |
God incarnate. So it tells us by an analogy what God is like. So I'm going to say another
|
| 00:43:06.560 |
autobiographical thing. I have heaped disease, I've had 13 surgeries so far. First time I had
|
| 00:43:13.040 |
surgery I was eight years old, I was out of the second grade. I had surgery spent the summer of my
|
| 00:43:19.680 |
grandparents' deck and every day I watched the sunset and you know I had to be sitting in the
|
| 00:43:26.560 |
summer and not playing around with the chilli other children to watch the sunset every single day
|
| 00:43:32.160 |
and they noticed that the position where the sun was setting was slightly different, it was moving
|
| 00:43:38.720 |
and you know as an eight years old in Italy I observed with my own eyes the rotation of the earth
|
| 00:43:45.120 |
which was marvelous and that to me the fact that the earth rotates around the sun is very regular,
|
| 00:43:52.960 |
it's very predictable and eight years old can watch it and eight years old can know where the sun
|
| 00:43:58.240 |
is going to be the next day with my experience of being recovering from surgery and you know
|
| 00:44:03.760 |
feeling lonely because my friends were playing outside this predictability of the universe is very
|
| 00:44:11.280 |
tied to my experience of suffering in a way the two things go together and they're comforting
|
| 00:44:18.720 |
and you know I'm not saying anything new it's I'm telling you my experience of the book of job
|
| 00:44:24.240 |
which is 3000 years old but there is a comfort that comes from looking outside of us.
|
| 00:44:31.360 |
No that I agree it's a comfort that comes from a sense if I understand you correctly of stability
|
| 00:44:38.880 |
and permanence which is a condition that doesn't pertain to us because we are
|
| 00:44:43.520 |
evanescent we are temporary and our lives are characterized by a great deal of instability
|
| 00:44:49.360 |
and impermanence. The universe was that eternal permanent stable place and of course
|
| 00:44:58.480 |
from a terrestrial point of view of one human lifetime it still is relatively permanent because
|
| 00:45:05.360 |
as far as we know the earth is still going to rotate in the same way around the sun for the foreseeable future
|
| 00:45:13.200 |
but when you look at the moon which is also rotating you know around the earth and then you find out
|
| 00:45:19.520 |
what is the origin of the moon it was like a horrible collision I mean a terrible body
|
| 00:45:27.920 |
extra you know terrestrial body that slammed into the earth and took one third of the body of the planet
|
| 00:45:34.880 |
and that one third comes out there and it eventually becomes the moon so all those poems to the
|
| 00:45:42.240 |
moon and the beauty and yeah it seems to have stability but its history is very unstable and we know
|
| 00:45:49.840 |
that you know the earth could be slammed at any moment and its rotation you know and the fact that
|
| 00:45:56.960 |
we have seasons is actually I think a product of that collision if I'm not mistaken no the fact that we
|
| 00:46:03.440 |
have seasons and they are not completely devastating on our climate so they'll moon is what
|
| 00:46:09.200 |
fixes their rotation angle of the earth to 23.5 degrees plus or minus 5 degrees all the other
|
| 00:46:16.160 |
planets go randomly between 0 and 90 during their orbit there is nothing that holds them there
|
| 00:46:22.160 |
and so like the moon is one of the main this violent event is one of the many reasons that keeps us
|
| 00:46:28.720 |
alive right and this is what I'm trying to say is that the irony is that you you can sit out there
|
| 00:46:34.240 |
and look at the at the moon at the you know the sunset every December you see that the earth is
|
| 00:46:39.600 |
rotating it it's an amazing and there's beauty everywhere you look in the in the cosmos and yet
|
| 00:46:45.200 |
the meaning of it is all absurd in a certain you can say from a certain point of view
|
| 00:46:51.280 |
that you ask what is the purpose where is it going well it's death thermal death things like it's not the sort of
|
| 00:46:56.320 |
narrative that you get in Christian catholic catechism like you and I had it is a very ironic
|
| 00:47:05.760 |
and maybe even tragically ironic disconnect between the sheer beauty and sense of transcendent grace
|
| 00:47:14.640 |
of the created world with the sort of seemingly purposeless ongoing
|
| 00:47:25.520 |
interaction of the four forces leading us into what Nietzsche called the great unknown X of
|
| 00:47:34.160 |
you know it is certainly paradoxical I agree with you that we are here because of violence
|
| 00:47:43.120 |
the cosmic scale at the same time if you think about the big bank or any of these violent events
|
| 00:47:50.000 |
it reminds me that we didn't have to be here because the universe the fact that he had the beginning
|
| 00:47:57.200 |
reality didn't have to be there and you know I don't want to make it therefore there is a
|
| 00:48:02.800 |
creator but the fact that I'm here if I look at the universe is very non obvious and so even paradoxically
|
| 00:48:11.920 |
it makes me a little bit great for for the supernova that made the iron that allows me to breathe
|
| 00:48:18.240 |
because it didn't have to to happen that way so does your work as a scientist
|
| 00:48:25.600 |
fortify your catholic faith or is it too completely separate domains that don't touch each other
|
| 00:48:36.720 |
I think they inspire each other in a way that's analogical it's not you know an
|
| 00:48:43.120 |
at least it's not right it's not analytical it's not even philosophical if you want but it's like
|
| 00:48:51.040 |
you know my love for poetry enforce my work as a scientist and my work for scientists shines a new
|
| 00:48:56.960 |
light on the stuff I read you know they all didn't think that you read I'm like oh this is beautiful
|
| 00:49:02.560 |
but that's not what's gonna happen to the earth they all go together and they method of
|
| 00:49:08.880 |
the method of curiosity are the same method for every field of knowledge including
|
| 00:49:15.760 |
faith or including biology right that's what's right and you know why do we know at all
|
| 00:49:23.520 |
why do we even want to do science that's not the question that can be answered with
|
| 00:49:28.560 |
science and all of my colleagues would give their life to find out what that matter is but why would
|
| 00:49:35.680 |
they that matter doesn't explain that so that's how they go together for me that's beautifully
|
| 00:49:42.640 |
put that that's great I you know I I'm reminded now of the end of a television series
|
| 00:49:55.120 |
true detective season one maybe some of our listeners have seen it and
|
| 00:50:01.200 |
it's a very dark show it's about evil and nihilism and and the
|
| 00:50:06.560 |
again focusing on the on the meaningless the absurdity of the University of life and
|
| 00:50:12.720 |
the unredeem quality of it but and yet at the end in the very last episode
|
| 00:50:20.640 |
at the for the conclusion Nik Pizzo lato he's another Italian he's from Louisiana but
|
| 00:50:26.640 |
I tell you I know how it's like brilliant degree in philosophy it's very strange because he the
|
| 00:50:35.760 |
ending is that the detective there's a pair of detective and it's been shot and he had a near
|
| 00:50:42.160 |
death experience in fact he seemed to have gone down for a while into the dark of death
|
| 00:50:47.280 |
and he comes back and he's in the hospital and his partner comes to see him and take him to the car
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| 00:50:54.320 |
and
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| 00:50:55.280 |
Russ one of the two the wounded one one to a near death experience looks he says you know when I was up
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| 00:51:02.720 |
there in that hospital room I was looking out at the sky every night and I and I realized that
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| 00:51:07.920 |
there's only just one story and Marty
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| 00:51:14.320 |
says yeah and what's that it's light against dark
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| 00:51:19.200 |
the partner looks up at the sky he says I don't know about Alaska because Russ also grew up in Alaska
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| 00:51:28.240 |
but it looks to me like the dark has a lot more territory
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| 00:51:31.360 |
and then he takes him to the car and then Russ says yeah but you're looking at it all wrong
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| 00:51:38.320 |
said okay how's that well in the beginning there was only darkness and so it seems to me like the
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| 00:51:47.200 |
light is winning okay that's a very edifying way to end a program it also has a Christian kind of
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| 00:51:57.440 |
a Christian message if you want that it's good against evil and that you know there's a
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| 00:52:05.920 |
victory of light against dark and that it might be indeed the case that the future will redeem
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| 00:52:13.360 |
all the violence and suffering of the past but we know from what you told us about dark energy
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| 00:52:21.760 |
that in the final analysis it might be that you know that dark that dark matter can put up a
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| 00:52:27.840 |
heroic resistance but it seems like dark energy is winning the game and that there's going to be
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| 00:52:34.320 |
eventually a lot more darkness in the sky than light simply because the further away the galaxies
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| 00:52:41.280 |
get from us the more its light is shifted into the you know the red the red shifting and the more
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| 00:52:48.640 |
the sky is going to become dark rather than light so it's a very edifying ending but at the same
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| 00:52:57.200 |
time it opens up some questions that are at the heart of the topic that we've been discussing today
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| 00:53:02.080 |
about these two forces that are controlling our cosmic destiny
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| 00:53:07.680 |
right and this says that our time in the universe is finite yeah because darkness will win
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| 00:53:16.000 |
and that's not a bad thing no talking talks talks about death as the gift of mortal
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| 00:53:23.520 |
two humans he says you know it's a bitter gift well in fact the the notion of a beginning
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| 00:53:32.000 |
has to imply death and if a universe had a beginning you know it has it has to have its death and
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| 00:53:38.320 |
Natality is the what we get in exchange for mortality so and darkness I don't think is necessarily
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| 00:53:47.040 |
bad at all and even rust the character in true detective knows that because he tells earlier he
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| 00:53:54.640 |
tells his partner that when he was there in in you know very close to death and even cross the line
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| 00:54:01.440 |
he felt this darkness and that there was a he says it's there was a darkness under the dark and
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| 00:54:06.880 |
it's like a warm substance and what he felt in that substance was love his daughter his father
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| 00:54:14.320 |
his you know the his dead daughter and that there is a sense that in that darkness is not the
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| 00:54:21.840 |
nihilistic nothingness but some other kind of almost in concealable love that that he was feeling so
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| 00:54:29.280 |
he's in a certain sense betraying his own insight in his statement that the light is winning because
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| 00:54:35.840 |
maybe you know the as you say it darkness is not an unhappy ending for the story
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| 00:54:46.720 |
Maria de Naut Monzani has been a pleasure talking to you today on entitled opinions about dark matter
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| 00:54:52.080 |
and much more besides I think that we have to have a follow-up discussion if you're willing to
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| 00:54:58.880 |
come back and join us thank you this was very fun okay i'm Robert Harrison for entitled opinions
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thanks for listening
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