10/12/2023
Vico and Joyce
A conversation with Corey Dansereau, a PhD Candidate in Modern Thought and Literature at Stanford, about the impact of Giambattista Vico on James Joyce’s writing. Songs in this episode: “Echo” by Glass Wave, and “I Might Be Wrong” by Radiohead.
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[Music]
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Entitled opinions, not for the faint of heart,
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not for the socially mediated,
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not for the mimic man,
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not for the self-satisfied.
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Out here on the perimeter, we crush on the unknown.
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Out here we look out and realize we don't really know much of anything,
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beyond the sheer weirdness of whatever we thought we knew.
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Here were the pillars of Hercules marked the threshold of the un-peopleed world,
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the moon draws nearer to earth than she was want and makes men mad.
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The true and the life-surgeic are convertible.
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Knowledge forged by hallucinations,
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comrade Jambati Savikha, "ignorance is a mother of wonder
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and made everything wondrous to men who were ignorant of everything."
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James Joyce, "river run, past even atoms from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
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brings us by a commodious vikas of recirculation back to
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the south castle and environs."
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Thus begins Finnegan's wake in the very middle.
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We begin in the middle and spend the rest of our lives trying to catch up with where it all started.
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Stay tuned friends, we're going to float down the incomodious vikas of recirculation,
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wherever it leads.
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A show on James Joyce and Finnegan's wake coming up.
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[Music]
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Stole the macula.
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[Music]
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Today's show is a follow-up to the monologue on Jambati Savikha's new science that aired a couple of weeks ago on entitled opinions.
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I'm joined in KZSU by Corey Danserow, a graduate student in Stanford's program of modern thought and literature,
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who is finishing up an extravagant dissertation about James Joyce's Finnegan's wake,
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and its influence on psychedelic literature and thought.
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You can't write a dissertation about Finnegan's wake and not know something about Vico's new science,
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which had a decisive influence on Joyce when he set out to write his super novel.
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Corey Danserow is a longtime member of the entitled opinions brigade,
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so let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments.
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Corey, welcome to the program.
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Hi Robert, thanks so much for bringing me in.
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So you're no stranger to the new science.
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In fact, you were my teaching collaborator in the last two seminars that I've taught on Vico.
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The first time was back in 2019, and then once again this past academic year.
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So before we plunge into Joyce, could you tell our listeners what drew you to Vico in the first place?
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Yes, what drew me to Vico is his legendary role in the composition of Finnegan's wake.
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Joyce seems to know about this Vico connection, but few of them study the new science with a
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dedication proportionate to its presence in Finnegan's wake.
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So I felt lucky, privileged really, to have the opportunity to do that with you, Robert,
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first in 2019, and again in 2020, would grab me right off the bat was because weirdness,
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the first page of his autobiography, where he attributes his genius to a childhood school fracture.
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Last week I fell headfirst from a window onto a bathroom floor in New York City,
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and I instantaneously thought of Vico, and I wondered if I would emerge with a philosophical
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golden bow like he did. Something similar happened to Jack Kerra back in the late 50s.
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He fell down and entered what he called the golden eternity.
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And maybe I'll mention that later.
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But yes, what drew me further into Vico when I started reading the new science was its psychedelic
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quality. It's extravagant shimmering, billowing prose, but also its content, which is nothing less
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than a psychedelic science of man. I mean, a hallucinogenic theory of the origins of humankind.
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At the time I was involved in some research and teaching in the psychiatry and behavioral science
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department and reading authors like Argorton, Watson, Aldous Huxley, and Terrence McKenna,
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each of whom advocated a version of the view that in the beginning was the drug.
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For instance, Huxley, man was a dope head before he was a farmer, or a McKenna's so-called
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"stone-to-ape theory" that changed in climatic conditions after the less ice age,
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brought art distant ancestors into contact with psychoactive mushrooms, which broke them out of
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their monkey egos, into proto-human, social consciousness, and behavior.
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So in 2019, I was amazed to find that these fringe theories of anthropology are actually
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variations on Vico's theory of harmonization. What do I mean by that? I'll assume our audience
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is listening closely to your monologue on Vico, especially the part about the primitive religions.
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Those lightning bolts that shock the giants are not what they seem. If we read closely, we
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notice that they are not just a meteorological phenomenon, a perturbation of the sky that
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discloses the sky, but also a technique of perturbing the mind, opening an inner sky,
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and elicit science, he calls it, "an illicit science of inducing those first thoughts of divinity,
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an inspiring divine speech." Vico writes that the theological poets perturbed themselves to
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access with a view to the end of producing sublime poetry, elsewhere he says that they sang the
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marvels wrought by sources, note the wording there. The song itself was the marvel, the product
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of the sorcery. Vico continues in the same passage, this is to be explained by a hidden sense that
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the nations have the omnipotence of God, the art or science of opening that occult sense, tuning
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subjects to the invisible electric body of Joe, Enlio, Jupiter, etc., some highest institution of
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every nation. Every nation then is born of hallucination. Indeed, the Gentile deities are hallucinations.
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Vico insists that there are projections of juvenile egos who mistake their imagination for reality
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and disseminate their self-deception to others, forming a collective mental space, a nation.
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Maloy, a political scientist and our latest seminar, coined the phrase "hallucinatory political theory"
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In your monologue, you said that Vico had reason to worry about running foul of the Inquisition, and indeed,
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he almost seems to be advocating kind of atheism, saying that all gods or hallucinations accept
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that he maintains a distinction between the Gentiles' pseudo-divine hallucinations and the
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Judo-Christian revelation. The course run by Gentile nations is in every case a long strange
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trip away from a hallucinatory origin, a depressive fall, out of a super-energetic poetic ecstasy
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or mania passing through an intermediate phase, which heroic efforts are made to realize, can serve,
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and extend the manic visions finally ending in the ambiguous completion and disenchantment of the
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human age. History is an end-static process by which I mean a process wherein things move
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from a state of ecstatic inflation back into what they really are. For in the beginning,
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men mistook their egos for a supernatural cosmic order. By the third age, imagination has dried
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up in sober reason prevailed and it becomes clear that the gods were just human projections
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and everyone's really human. Metaphorical poetic language resolves into generic,
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prosaic language. One of the practical question for Vico is how to treat the depressive symptoms
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of all two human ages without opening the floodgates to delusional and destructive manias,
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what he calls chaos of the metaphysical poets. I call this historical therapy,
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that is, the work of healing history itself rejuvenating without rebistializing.
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All of this is what captivated me about Vico even put me in a frenzy as Misha Lei put it.
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On the one hand, I felt that I had landed on a secret subterranean continent on which all
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modern psychedelic thought and culture should rest. I'll be it later. I discovered that the CIA
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were under the influence of Vico when they planned to turn America onto LSD. On the other hand,
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Vico's therapeutic product gave me a lens for understanding Fennigan's wake, not least,
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understanding Joyce's own complicated perspective on revivals of ancient religion and
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pharmacotheology already underway in his time. And we could certainly use some kind of lens
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on Fennigan's wake. As it says somewhere, the further back we managed to wiggle the more we
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need the loan of a lens to see what the hand saw and by the way, the hand is always
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upon on Ta-Hen, the metaphysical one, the Greek word for the one.
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Partly the interruption, Corey, I just want to ask a question about Fennigan's wake and psychedelics
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and your perception of what's going on in Fennigan's wake. Does one have to be on psychedelics
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in order to understand Fennigan's wake and notoriously difficult, if not illegible, work?
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Does one need to have taken psychedelics or even currently beyond one in order to understand the
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wake? Probably not. Marshall McLuhan reported that acid has claimed Fennigan's wake is just
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like LSD, but McLuhan himself had never tripped yet. He read the wake religiously,
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Same with Joseph Campbell, whose wake inspired mono-myth guide at so many trips without himself
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ever having tripped. He got there just by reading reading as he put it.
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Timothy Leary, for his part, said Joyce's prose prepared him to take psychedelics,
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made him desire them even before he knew they existed, and gave him the idea of a side
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clotron, a mental Adam Smasher. When he first started running drug experiments at Harvard,
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there was a sensationally popular lecture on Fennigan's wake that same semester, and I think Leary's
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concept of psychedelic experience as the death of the mind harkens to the opening pages of
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Fennigan's wake, where the hero embarks to Amnti, an a mental place. Fennigan's wake is about what
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goes on in the mind's absence, and the prose demonstrates this. This raw data mashing without
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stable concepts and underworld, where order is provided not by transcendental intellect, but by
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imminent feelings of terror and fascination. Maybe psychedel can help attune us to this style,
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but really the only way to make headway at all is with a high degree of clear-headed focus,
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what you in your recent episode on Ammar Moon, we call it "Lamplight Love" and a good set of annotations.
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To reapproach your question in a different way though, I think Fennigan's wake can be
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elucidated by a psychedelic lens, a psychedelic in Viconian. I mean, it's very concretely.
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Several passages in the overture evoke the scenario of a shamanic initiation, a pharmaceutical
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vision quest, or what Peter Kingsley calls "incubation." This folds together with Vico's philosophical
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quest, as I described earlier, a descent out of these civilized nature of ours back into the
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Arcana of psychohistory, the heroic and divine ages, in search of a restorative power for a
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senile into press nation, a kind of controlled recorso whereby a resurrection or
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refreshment will hopefully occur. Very late in Fennigan's wake there, indications that we're
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coming down back into the present concrete world and voice says, "We have enjoyed the secret
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workings of nature. Nature here must be heard in the Viconian sense of birth, the Nashimento of a
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nation leaving aside from another question of what nation?" If you look at the back of Fennigan's wake
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or listen to most commentators on it, you'll hear that it is about sleep. I think that's too narrow
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in the ballad, Fennigan's wake, the young Tim Fennigan has fallen down while deeply intoxicated and
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so unconscious that he seems to be dead. He isn't asleep. In letters Joyce referred to Tim Fennigan as
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that shying toad, a German word for suspended animation or a trance-like state. Joyceans will declare
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things like, "Though little is agreed upon about the wake, it is universally agreed that it begins
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where Ulysses ends with Leopold going to bed, Leopold bloom that is. But it's just as possible, I think,
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to say that the wake begins with the climax of Ulysses were Stephen Daedalus, whom the Theosophist
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medic, Bach Mulligan has dosed with an ancient Greek sacrament, collapses at the peak of a philosophical
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frenzy. His stream of consciousness drops out for fifty pages. I think the wake brings us into that
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concealed, liminal state, a state of suspense of ex-animation, a revelatory near-death experience.
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Joyce also sometimes cites Thomas de Quincy at key moments of Fennigan's wake, and I think the
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book should be conceived less in terms of sleep and dreaming than of a kind of epiphenic flash,
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de Quincy attributes to opium or near-death experiences, in which all encompassing visions of life
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in the hidden structures of the cosmos were revealed. And again, for Joyce this folds together with
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the vaconian therapeutic mission into the Arcana of Mental History, a controlled
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recourse so to rejuvenate a terminal human age. As the rational humanist subject goes down,
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archaic, magical theological archetypes swing up, the theological poet, the patriarch, the founder
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of nations, and Vico, these are three aspects of a single figure, but Joyce defracts them into
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three characters. A father, known by his initials HCE, and his two sons, one of whom is a writer,
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Shem the Penman, and the other a civil servant, Shem the Post. You could say that HCE represents the
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divine age, Shem the heroic age, Shem the human age. Shem after all is a universalist philosopher,
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Bolschovic, maybe involved in a plot to tear down his father HCE. Shem is a mediator between his father
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and his brother, a conformist who scorns Shem, but nevertheless wants to learn something from him.
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But we'll get into trouble if we try to hold these distinctions, that's true of the wake in general,
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any attempt to separate things out in unstable concepts will come to grief. I'm more confident that
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the father and each of the sons reflect an aspect of the first age, a divine archetype trying to
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revive itself in restore spirit and meaning in an all too human age. With the danger of returning to
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gigantic, the patriarch HCE is introduced as a capitalist, Freemason, colligialist, submerging his
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head in alcohol and hallucinating celestial architecture. Throughout the book he's being investigated
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and or scapegoated as a powerful, theo-political conspirator and pedophile who flashed young girls in the
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park. The poet's son, the metaphysician, Shem the Penman, the chapter about him is styled as an
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expose by a scandalized, populist press. He takes mushrooms and flies like a reindeer by the light
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fantastic of his noses glow, noses spelled with a G. He's infected with various diseases and
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including Europikolas, a disease related to the hallucinogenic fungus Ergot. His infections are
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always also secret initiations. He's the sole contracted son of the secret cell and he's writing a
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baconian book that fuses all cycle-wealing history in a single present tense. In another chapter,
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his story is told in the first person and it's overlaid with Dr. Jackles saga with transcendental
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medication. Finally, Sean, the older brother is a civic figure, a doctor, a hygienist and
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eugenist and a hierarchy and a shady power structure. He's the wakes equivalent of Buck Mulligan
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from Ulysses, but he also corresponds to Joyce's real-life childhood friend, Selzger Gunn, who had
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become the vice president of the Rockefeller Foundation. The opening pages, Finn and Zwick,
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depict the poet and the doctor, statesman, locked in a magical duel on a boat on a river to the
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underworld. And one aspect of the book's shamanic initiatory plot structure is that Gunn is being
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initiated into a medical, magical, or magical cult out of ancient Egypt. Tracking Gunn throughout the
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book gives a picture of reminiscent of Tacitus' theme of the Arkana in Peery, the mysteries,
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or secrets of empire, and anticipate the joycy and conspiracy fictions of Thomas Pinchon.
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Joyce's paranoid fascination with Rockefeller human science projects,
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narco-capitalist machinations. The Sandos Farm-Sudical Company, which made LSD,
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global electronic media, and Gnostic Apocolipticism. All of these come together in the
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fantastic image in Book II, Chapter 1, of the Global Theater operated by Selzger Gunn,
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showing the radium wedding of night and morning, and peace, perfect pure and perpetual.
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And this in Book's Kant, of course, but "nied" means envy in German. This is another of the
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underappreciated themes of Finn and Gensweik. This proto-Girardian investigation of envy.
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Gunn is often depicted manipulating people and indeed taking over the world using the green worm of
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envy. The ethical plot of the book is that the giant poet, Shem, or Joyce, is watching and
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judging the giant statesman, Sean, or Gunn. As they both traverse the underworld, the poet's pen interlocked
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with a medic's syringe, the poet trying to master the medic, such that he finally shapes up into
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illegitimate monarch rather than an occult and our co-tyrant, which for Vico is the only non-catastrophic
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outcome of the human age. Corey, you're starting to sound to me like lucky and Beckett's
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waiting for Goudo? Well, that's very interesting to say that, Robert, because when lucky gives
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that Finn against Wagestyle speech, I think Beckett is giving a depiction of the relation between
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Joyce and Susqueh Ghan, who I just mentioned. Lucky is a slave and a kind of court fool to
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Potsso in a curious power wielder who's playing God. He speaks at Potsso's behest, and though he
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doesn't address anyone in particular, it's Potsso who understands him. Indeed, Potsso is violently
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affected by the speech and finally forces Lucky to stop. To me, it's clear that lucky speech mimics
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and satirizes Potsso's claim to mastery of the world. And I think this is Beckett's microscopic
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representation of Finn against Wagislich, which he helped Joyce to write. Like Lucky, Joyce is speaking
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to know and in particular, speaking to anyone speaking into the ether, but also speaking to the
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ruling intelligentsia, who funded him and who will read him in the universities for the next 300 years.
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But also more immediately, he's addressed some gun, the social medical commissar of the Rockefeller
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Foundation, whose quasi metaphysical ambition to heal and control the world, Joyce,
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Mox and Wake.
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Corey, I'm going to interrupt you again and ask, because I mentioned at the beginning that your
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dissertation is not just about Finn against Wake, but it's about its reception among a number of
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American protagonists. And I would like before we run out of time or energy here for you to say
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something about that.
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Yes, as far as Joyce's reception in America, very early on, we have Eric Fogel and who frequent
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Shakespeare in co-imparison, eagerly read Joyce's work in progress as it emerged. John Cage
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bought Finn against Wake in Seattle the year it was released 1939. Then of course there's
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Joseph Campbell and Henry Robinson whose skeleton key to Finn against Wake was a heroic effort
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of condensation and summary, heroic and sheer speed, appearing on the five years after the publication
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of the Wake, overhasteed perhaps, and perhaps it's significant to lay more in announcing the
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arrival of Campbell himself. In any case, the skeleton key was crucial to the Wake's reception
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in America, especially when it was republished to the turn of the 60s and I'll return to that.
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Marshall McLuhan, his early essays on Joyce before McLuhan was famous, are quite amazing and strange.
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I recommend especially the essay Joyce Aquinas and the poetic process. He begins by quoting
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an early poem by Joyce in which he scoffs at other writers, souls who lack the strength that
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mine has, steeled in the school of old Aquinas, including thanks Joyce's epiphanic streams of
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consciousness are a rigorous application of Aquinas's theory of the stages of cognition. McLuhan
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likes to refer to this as a vivisection of the mind in action. In turn, he refers Aquinas's
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theory to the Aleucinian mysteries, but I'm not going to talk about that. Before moving on to the
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Joyce and writers of the beat, movement and psychedelic counterculture, I want to mention that Campbell
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and McLuhan collaborated on a social science project at the turn of the 60s, an attempted design
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and mythology that would inspire America and bring on a new age of global culture. The leader of
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the project was the Harvard social psychologist, Henry Murray, who tapped Campbell and McLuhan for
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| 00:16:50.880 |
his 1959 edition of "Deadless Magazine," before discussing that issue of "Deadless a Little
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Vaconian Backstory" as an order. Murray was a "America's Leading Psychologist," he wrote in an extraordinary
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literary style that drew comparisons to William James. He was also a leading Melville scholar, pivotal in
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| 00:17:02.960 |
the canonization of Melville. During the war, he was recruited by William Donovan to be the chief
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| 00:17:06.320 |
professor and selector of intelligence agencies for the Office of Strategic Services, the
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| 00:17:09.360 |
precursor to the CIA that could continue to succeed from the early in the future, following the
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| 00:17:12.960 |
demonstration of the comic power in 1945. Murray, "Sennon Sonomati, non-Levaljama," I'm Robert Harrison for
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| 00:17:20.240 |
entitled "Pinience."
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| 00:17:36.240 |
[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[BLANK_AUDIO]
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